To Bluetooth or not to Bluetooth - that is the question

[Hppants]

So the left channel in my Ampli-rider crapped the bucket. 10 years old, 200,000 miles - it owes me nothing.

I can still get another one, but I thought I'd bring up the other option: Bluetooth in helmet communications.

Here's my thing: I like to listen to HIGH QUALITY music when I'm riding. I've got an ear bud (Shure-215) that sounds great and SEALS WELL in my ear. If I don't wear ear buds, then I MUST wear ear plugs that are at least -28 DB. Anything less and the road/wind noise sucks for me.

I'm not opposed to having "speaking" comms in my helmet. There are a few times when that would be handy, but honestly, I'm not into having these big discussions while I'm riding. I'd rather listen to my music. Same with the phone - I don't need to use the phone while I'm riding.

I bought a Sena20 years ago. Over the ear plugs, it worked great for speaking comms and phone calls. Music totally sucked - I could hardly hear it with the phone cranked up and the sena cranked up. I tried the external port on the Sena for my ear buds, and the music was louder, but the sound quality was totally garbage. I narrowed that down to the sena amplifier because when I plugged the ear buds directly into my phone, the sound was better - not good, but better. I promptly returned the sena for a full refund.

Incidentally, if I go to Blue-tooth, then I've got to get a radar detector that does wireless. My old Escort works great through the ampli-rider (with ear buds or ear plugs).

But that was a couple years ago. Reluctant as I am, I guess I gotta give NEW SCHOOL at least some consideration.

What's out there now? is it better? What do you have and do you like it or not?

[gixxerjasen]

I don't ride with others very much so I don't use comms. I also don't take phone calls while riding usually. I got a tip in the direction for some small bluetooth devices that work well to attach to your usual earphones. I was originally pointed to the Fiio BTR5 as a good device. I dragged my feet on getting one and when I looked again, there were a lot of comparisons to the Qudelix 5K. I picked one of these up for my trip out west and while it's a bit finnicky on how it operates, it did very well for me and I liked it. They are known for having great quality sound with a long long battery life.

I only had a couple of issues, the first I had was using the devices dual pairing mode where you can have it running to two devices at the same time. I had the idea of having it paired to my phone and GPS at the same time. I think that maybe the GPS and phone were using two different bluetooth protocols because whenever the GPS started talking it was very very messed up sounding. Like slow and garbled. I fortunately discovered this in testing and not on the road and went the traditional route of pairing my phone to the GPS and GPS to the Qudelix and that worked perfectly, though I suspect Garmin is not using the high quality bluetooth protocols that my phone is capable of. Still sounded good though, way better than the Sena.

Second was with the buttons and the pairing and stuff. I suspect that something happened in a firmware update that changed some functionality but didn't make it into the latest manuals. I was able to figure it out but it was annoying.

Other than that, I definitely recommend the device. It's a little pricey but if you've invested in nice earbuds then this is no big deal, especially given the audio quality and long battery life if you plan on doing a bunch of riding in the near future Mr Retiredguy.

ES100 also gets some good reviews, but is an older model compared to the Fiio which is older compared to the Qudelix.
https://www.amazon.com/EarStudio-ES100- ... ljaz10cnVl

I don't see the Fiio on Amazon anymore, wonder if there's a new upgraded version coming.
https://www.fiio.com/btr5

And here's the Qudelix that I ended up with.
https://www.amazon.com/Qudelix-5K-Bluet ... s9dHJ1ZQ==

[Festus]

Why not just get the Shure bluetooth model, since you like the Shure product you own?

[1911]

I love the setup we have now, but like most things I am fond of it's probably obsolete. Zumo 550/GXM30 hard wired to a Sena SM10 which links to our Sena 20s helmet sets. I use Sure 215 buds plugged into the 20s. The music sound quality and volume is great and we can charge while riding.

[gixxerjasen]

Why not just get the Shure bluetooth model, since you like the Shure product you own?

I actually considered the Shure bluetooth cable but as it's designed to wear around the neck, I wasn't sure how it'd work under a heavy motorcycle jacket. I have another set of similar bluetooth headphones and they are always working their way to one side when I exercise on their own and it's annoying. My solution just sits in my inside pocket, but that cable sure is cheaper. The over the ear wireless adapters look too bulky to use under a helmet.

[Hppants]

Why not just get the Shure bluetooth model, since you like the Shure product you own?

I guess I was thinking that the Shure B/T cable doesn't solve the "clean amp" issue. To me, a big part of why the ear buds sound so good is because the amp driving them is so clean.

Duane - when I plugged the 215s into the Sena 20s, the sound quality was horrible. I don't think the amp in the 20 is worth a crap for music - just fine for voice, which of course is what it is designed for. Perhaps the SM10 has a better amp? Guess it's moot - can't find a 10 anyway.

Jasen - I had no idea that a "B/T amp" existed. Thanks for the enlightenment. I've got more questions than I can put into words.

[Festus]

The new Sena's, not that I'm recommending them, are big on the HD sound being the speaker part. You can upgrade your 20's or 30's to the "HD ear pods" and they say the sound is much better. That would lead me to believe the sound quality level on the more modern ones is determined on the speaker, not the unit.

I have a BT setup for an old Bose Wave Machine and it works excellent. I bet what Jasen is doing is essentially the same thing. I'd go with what he's linked to.

[Hppants]

So I'm an old (OLD) school audiofile, which is to say I don't know crap, and ya'll are gonna have to dumb it WAY down for me to benefit from your help. I apologize and thank you profusely in advance.

1. If I go to the B/T receiver (Qudelix or similar), then my phone then becomes the music input, correct? If I do that, I guess I have to upload the 6GB of music I have on my MP3 player to the phone. Which means I have to find 6 GB of space on the phone to put it. Or maybe there is such a thing as a B/T MP3 player? Keep in mind that many places I ride have no cell signal, so uploading to Itunes or some other cloud service is not a viable option. Furthermore, I'd prefer not to subscribe to ANYTHING through all of this (Pandora, etc). I'd rather pay the money for quality electronics up front.

2. I think I'm looking at 3 "inputs" for the B/T amp: my GPS, the phone, and a radar detector to be purchased. I currently don't use the turn-by-turn instructions on the GPS, but if I'm going to go B/T, I might as well take advantage of that. Looking at the specs of the receiver, and interpreting Jasen's previous comment, it would appear that connecting all 3 inputs directly to the receiver is not ideal. Rather, "bridging" (I made that word up) them in line from one to the other to the receiver is the way to go? How the heck does that work? Again, back in the day, you couldn't wire inputs in "series". (scratching my head in a stupor).

3. Maybe I should re-visit the newer Sena stuff to see if the sound quality is improved, and what "wiring" options exist for me.

Again - appreciate all of the help.

[DesignFlaw06]

The new Sena's, not that I'm recommending them, are big on the HD sound being the speaker part. You can upgrade your 20's or 30's to the "HD ear pods" and they say the sound is much better. That would lead me to believe the sound quality level on the more modern ones is determined on the speaker, not the unit.

I have the 50S with the HD speakers. I didn't have the previous version so I can't say what kind of upgrade they really are, but I do know that the sound quality is inferior to the J&M wireless headset I have. Both require the volume to be max, but there was a noticeable difference in quality. That being said, the feature set and compatibility of the Sena is greater than the J&M. I would have stuck with the J&M if I didn't do group riding so often.

The Sena has a jack for something other than their speakers. I've just ordered a pair of Plugphones for earplugs and sound combines. Logistics of getting those on and then the helmet may be a bit tricky, but I figure it is worth a shot. I have wasted more money on dumber things. Just waiting for a decent day to get them out for a ride.

[Hppants]

Thanks for that feedback, Tim - it helps. I've got a riding buddy with an old J&M system and I've compared the 20s to it, and agree wholeheartedly - the J&M is LOADS better for sound quality. I really think the weak link is the amplifier. You don't need much power (or even CLEAN power) for the midrange frequencies needed for voice. Sena saves money this way.

Let me know what the speaker change does for you.

BTW - I bought a set of those Torx in helmet speakers. They are very good quality for the radar detector beeps, but not so much for music. I can hear the music, but it's not loud enough unless I over drive it. I use them in place of my ear buds (with ear plugs) sometimes. On long trips, after a few days, my ear canals will get a little tender from the ear bud tips. I'll switch to the plugs and speakers and it gets better.

[gixxerjasen]

I'm not an audiofile for sure. That said, I can tell when something is crap and when something is good, but listening to two very good devices, I can't tell the difference like others can. I made my decisions by listening to reviews from folks that can.

Most bluetooth devices only allow you to pair to one device. Some devices allow for more than one. For instance, you can pair your phone to your GPS, and you can also pair a Sena to the GPS, allowing your phone to go into the gps and hand off to your sena. This provides a nice feature in that the GPS will lower or cut the volume to your music so you don't miss your turn by turn directions. I don't generally use the voice turn by turn directions but they are nice when you are zoning, appreciating scenery or avoiding idiots on the road to give you a subtle reminder of that turn that's coming up RIGHT NOW!

I'm not sure what you've been storing your music on but yes, you can store it on your phone and there's plenty of mp3 players out there, some can get very expensive if you get into the audiofile world. That's definitely an easy way to go, however, if I did that, they are so small that I'd be tempted to skip the bluetooth part altogether and just plug your earphones directly into them, especially if you don't need the voice turn by turn directions. That would probably be the simplest way to go and give you the best quality of sound.

That said, there's a whole bunch of bluetooth protocols and the picky sound guys will tell you that they can hear the differences in compression, etc, between the various protocols. I can't but I know my phone and the qudelix can do the good ones so I know I'll be happy with what I hear.

That said, I did subscribe to spotify. Downloading for offline listening is easy, just select the playlist and download. It does download in compressed format to not take up so much space but I can have plenty of music to listen to on a trip that way. I hate paying for services but it seems this is the easy way to go because I also don't invest money into buying music anyway.

I also tested a bunch of various tips for my shure earbuds. I ended up with the little flanged tips that resemble those rubber earplugs.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0027 ... UTF8&psc=1

These also are highly rated, but I found they didn't block enough air noise from riding to suit me, though they were super comfortable.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003J ... UTF8&psc=1

Also, if you enjoy playing around with your customizable sound stuff, the Qudelix has a whole metric ton of settings including a crap ton of features in the equalizer area. It's a great little device and works really well for my needs, which may not be your needs. Sounds to me like you could do with just a quality MP3 player instead and would be very happy.

[raYzerman]

Another alternative is the Cardo Packatalk Bold.... they tout the JBL speakers, but I read mixed reviews.... same deal perhaps, great for voice, not optimal for music unless overdriving...

What headset to buy depends on intercom and who you normally ride with and what they have... a group of us up here are considering moving to Cardo from Sena as a couple of us have Sena issues with intercom. Cardo just moves us into mesh for that, but same old bluetooth for everything else. I hate spending all this money on comms over the years.

If keeping speakers, perhaps consider a lower rating of earplugs, to say 28db instead of 30+. Or, trim the 30+ ones off so you have less foam on the larger outside part. The other thing one can do is get musician's earplugs which simply have filters in them to let music through....

My problem with earplugs is my ear canals are small and I have a hard time keeping them in. Probably could use custom earplugs with speakers, but now we're talking a new game with logistics of getting them in, managing cords and putting the helmet on.

If you get bluetooth earplugs, then I gather you're stuck pairing them to the phone as the only audio input (unless two channel ones exist).

No problem loading music on the phone with the appropriate memory card.... it is then a bluetooth mp3 player, no cell service required.

The best audio I had was with an Autocom unit..... but requires wired inputs and wired headsets.....

[Hppants]

This is getting good, really appreciate the feedback.

Jasen - If I get a B/T MP3 player, that solves the "I don't want a subscription" problem and the "I don't have 6 gb of free space on the phone" problem, but I would still need the B/T receiver for the radar detector (and a new B/T radar detector), correct?

Also, excellent point about pairing to the GPS, so that the music volume is lowered when the GPS needs to say something. I didn't even think about that. I'll have to look at my GPS to see if it can be paired with more than one device (Tom Tom rider). In the end, that would/could be a lower priority. If i'm going to do this, I might as well research the comms to. I wonder if the new Sena can talk to the B/T receiver, and then push to my ear buds?

I use the same silicon 3-flange ear bud tips you like. I actually cut off the smallest flange and they seal really well. But as stated earlier, after a few days, sometimes my ear canals get a bit tender. No worries - I could easily plug in my torx speakers to the B/T receiver as the ear buds.

Thanks again to all.

[N4HHE]

Am not sure I understand what Bluetooth will do for you if you already use Shure ear buds? The quality playing out Bluetooth on your phone into a Bluetooth receiver driving the Shure can not be better than a direct connect from phone to Shure. Perhaps there is an equalization app for your phone to edit and enhance frequency ranges missing through the direct connect Shure?

Agree, Sena 20S sounds like SSB shortwave radio. Plain non-JBL Cardo Packtalk Bold sounds like FM in comparison. Trust the JBL version sounds better. Doesn't appear to use different hardware other than the speakers. Cardo does have an equalization app for the JBL version. The app sets equalization parameters in the Packtalk itself.

Garmin Zumo 595 has external audio inputs which it will mix and route via Bluetooth. Should handle your radar detector however I have disconnected my 595 from my Packtalk Bold because it messes up the quality of sound. Had to drop the drive level to 80% in order to eliminate most of the digital overdrive that was happening. Garmin complains most times I turn it on that I don't let it do phone audio. It does have a data connection to my iPhone so it will display incoming texts, phone calls, and display title of current song being played.

[gixxerjasen]

Am not sure I understand what Bluetooth will do for you if you already use Shure ear buds? The quality playing out Bluetooth on your phone into a Bluetooth receiver driving the Shure can not be better than a direct connect from phone to Shure. Perhaps there is an equalization app for your phone to edit and enhance frequency ranges missing through the direct connect Shure?

Quite a few modern phones don't offer a port for you to plug in wired earphones anymore. Too many people already switched to bluetooth so they just figure they can remove it and it makes room for a little more battery so they can have more than their competitors. I can use a dongle to convert my USB-C to a headphone port, but then I can't charge it at the same time. If I had a 3.5mm port I'd be doing what you did but decided to do what I did because of the lack of that port. This way it's nice, the phone sits in my tank bag connected to my charger, and I can control my music through the GPS device, without any wires going from me to the bike.

[DesignFlaw06]

So I'm an old (OLD) school audiofile, which is to say I don't know crap, and ya'll are gonna have to dumb it WAY down for me to benefit from your help. I apologize and thank you profusely in advance.

1. If I go to the B/T receiver (Qudelix or similar), then my phone then becomes the music input, correct? If I do that, I guess I have to upload the 6GB of music I have on my MP3 player to the phone. Which means I have to find 6 GB of space on the phone to put it. Or maybe there is such a thing as a B/T MP3 player? Keep in mind that many places I ride have no cell signal, so uploading to Itunes or some other cloud service is not a viable option. Furthermore, I'd prefer not to subscribe to ANYTHING through all of this (Pandora, etc). I'd rather pay the money for quality electronics up front.

2. I think I'm looking at 3 "inputs" for the B/T amp: my GPS, the phone, and a radar detector to be purchased. I currently don't use the turn-by-turn instructions on the GPS, but if I'm going to go B/T, I might as well take advantage of that. Looking at the specs of the receiver, and interpreting Jasen's previous comment, it would appear that connecting all 3 inputs directly to the receiver is not ideal. Rather, "bridging" (I made that word up) them in line from one to the other to the receiver is the way to go? How the heck does that work? Again, back in the day, you couldn't wire inputs in "series". (scratching my head in a stupor).

3. Maybe I should re-visit the newer Sena stuff to see if the sound quality is improved, and what "wiring" options exist for me.

Again - appreciate all of the help.

You can look at the Sena SM10 also that allows two 3.5mm audio inputs, with a Bluetooth connection to a Sena headset. I use the Sena Freewire, which is essentially the same kind of thing, only it hooks up to my CB instead. You would have to read up on how it prioritizes inputs.

[N4HHE]

Am not sure I understand what Bluetooth will do for you if you already use Shure ear buds? The quality playing out Bluetooth on your phone into a Bluetooth receiver driving the Shure can not be better than a direct connect from phone to Shure. Perhaps there is an equalization app for your phone to edit and enhance frequency ranges missing through the direct connect Shure?

Quite a few modern phones don't offer a port for you to plug in wired earphones anymore.

Yes, but I understand Pants has already tried the Shure directly connected to his phone? Said the quality was better than Sena 20S but not the desired audiophile quality.

As for "charging and listening at same time" perhaps I am spoiled because my iPhone plays all day on battery power.

[gixxerjasen]

As for "charging and listening at same time" perhaps I am spoiled because my iPhone plays all day on battery power.

Probably, despite me recently changing the battery my 4 generations old phone still chews it up pretty quickly. Looking to hopefully upgrade later this month. I usually upgrade every other year, but after losing my brand new phone out of my RAM mount, I made myself wait longer since I bought two phones in two months. Ugh.

[Hppants]

I do not have a 3.5 mm port on my current phone (Iphone 7s). I did have one on my old Iphone 6. Sound quality was better than Sena, but not anywhere near the Ampli-rider wired system.

I need to study the SM-10. Thanks for the suggestion, Tim.

Another challenge in the mix is having a volume control to turn it all down when I need to.

[PJ4863]

I have the cardo packtalk bold. I left the speakers in the box, and plug my in ear monitors that I got from an audiologist in them. Best music? Nope. Volume is enough sound is pretty clean. 27 or 28 db reduction. I could spend more and get better monitors but I'm not an audiophile for sure.