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Gen 3 surging

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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by blind squirrel »

Festus wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:07 pm
blind squirrel wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:15 pm
Festus wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:40 pm

It's an FJR, not a Tenere' :)
I know. A Tenere wouldn't be having this problem. :D
I’m letting the air out of your tires next time I see you :)
Cool! We're going off-road riding? :lol:
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by Festus »

blind squirrel wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:34 pm
Festus wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:07 pm
blind squirrel wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:15 pm

I know. A Tenere wouldn't be having this problem. :D
I’m letting the air out of your tires next time I see you :)
Cool! We're going off-road riding? :lol:
I liked the fat squirrel a lot more :) He was nicer.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by blind squirrel »

Festus wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:35 pm
blind squirrel wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:34 pm
Festus wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:07 pm

I’m letting the air out of your tires next time I see you :)
Cool! We're going off-road riding? :lol:
I liked the fat squirrel a lot more :) He was nicer.
:nhlfight: :lol:
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by FJRPittsburgh »

raYzerman wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:01 pm Do the tank swap first for an extended run. The TB's aren't causing the surge IMHO. The only crud you'll see is on the butterfly plates and that won't cause surge.

If you want to spend time, rig up a hose fitting to test fuel pump pressure on the hose that feeds the TB's.... just so you're not in too much suspense, the plastic OEM pump body contains the pressure relief valve..... thus I mention the extended test with your tank and you could do vice versa.

Edit add - the thing that doesn't quite make sense is when at a steady 3000-4000 rpm when fuel demand is moderate....
I agree with the extended tank swap idea. If it doesn't surge with the other tank then it has nothing to do with injectors or anything beyond the fuel tank and fuel pump. I'm thinking with the extended test, the bike is still going to surge. I can't figure anything in the fuel tank causing the issue at 3000-4000 rpms. And I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express while at Intech Day. El Toro Joe did also, so there's that. :D
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by Festus »

Spoke to a motorcycle mechanic type guy that I ran into and I asked him about it and he named off everything we have tried, almost in order. He mentioned something that made me say "hmmmm". He suggested the throttle mapping has gotten corrupted and suggested taking it to a dealer and let them remap it.

Is that an option? A valid theory? Worth looking into?
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by FJRoss »

Festus wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:16 pm Spoke to a motorcycle mechanic type guy that I ran into and I asked him about it and he named off everything we have tried, almost in order. He mentioned something that made me say "hmmmm". He suggested the throttle mapping has gotten corrupted and suggested taking it to a dealer and let them remap it.

Is that an option? A valid theory? Worth looking into?
I think it is highly unlikely. (Does it happen in both touring AND sport modes?) On the other hand, you can always get the "Ivan" flash done. Added bonus is that it would give you a cruise control that isn't limited to 80 mph (it is a 2013, isn't it?).
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/fjr1300.htm

Did you do the tank swap again - for an extended period of time?
Still might be worth looking at fuel pressure on the rail and the fuel injectors.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by Festus »

Haven't done the extended tank swap. Haven't had time yet. Great question on the touring/sport mode. I don't think he wants to do the Ivan flash. He's also spent a fair amount of money on things that didn't work so I think he'd rather not spend any more money unless he knew it would fix it for certain.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by raYzerman »

Not sure how the map would get corrupted... I'd continue with the tank swap experiment first.....
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by dcarver »

What year is subject bike? I have a gen 1 tank w/ fuel pp I got from RIP Ray if needed. Price will be right!
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by FJRoss »

dcarver wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:58 pm What year is subject bike? I have a gen 1 tank w/ fuel pp I got from RIP Ray if needed. Price will be right!
Gen III - 2013
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by dcarver »

FJRoss wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:01 pm
dcarver wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:58 pm What year is subject bike? I have a gen 1 tank w/ fuel pp I got from RIP Ray if needed. Price will be right!
Gen III - 2013
Ack. Not much help then.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by Festus »

What's the fuel pressure on the rail, anyone know? We are going to work on it soon, trying to get all my ducks in a row before hand.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by raYzerman »

Yammy service manual, fuel pressure at idle is 43.5-56.6 psi.
Note, pressure regulator is part of the fuel pump assembly (not the pump itself), as I alluded to earlier. Thus the tank swap for an extended period is a good exercise.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by Festus »

Just for reference, it surges in Touring and Sport modes, just less in Touring.

Thanks Ray. Hope to have some good news soon. Got some things in the works for it, we'll see if that corrects it.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by raYzerman »

Touring just slows down the rate of delivering power so you have to twist the wrist a bit more, same power, fueling map I imagine is no different. I'd still swap tanks first, get a baseline rather than chasing anything at this point.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by Festus »

Well, another update. We haven't had time to do a tank swap with extended ride time. I'm working 80-90 hours a week so my time is limited. I worked Sunday but hauled my fuel injection cleaning machine over to Viper Dad's, who already had everything ready.

We put the 4 injectors in the machine and immediately saw an issue. They say you want a 2-3% variance at most and we were seeing 13-14% variances at different test speeds. One injector was the culprit. The other 3, not too far from each other, but that 4th injector just dumped fuel. We pulled the internal filters out and cleaned the injectors in the ultrasonic tank more times than I can count. Nothing. Could not get them closer. I had to go back to work, so I packed up the machine and his injectors and came back and worked on them all day, while jobs were running.

Couldn't get that 4th injector to come down or the other 3 to go up. Started to think the machine was bad and questioned everything I had learned about it all. Finally checked them all 1 by 1 instead of 4 at a time and saw 3 really close, almost exactly the same, and that 4th one, still dumping way more than any of them. Nothing else I can do. They couldn't be any cleaner and I can't get them matched.

He came and got them, put them in, and ran it and it still surges. I honestly believe it's that one injector that's dumping way more fuel than the others, but I could be wrong.

We still have the tank swap test to complete, but this was one more data point. Thought I'd throw it out there in case it meant anything to anyone else that we weren't thinking about.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by FJRoss »

Doesn't explain why you had apparent operational success when you did the tank swap before. Coincidence, perhaps?
New injector is $134. Or check ebay for used, refurbished or aftermarket new.
Try swapping that one injector with one from your bike if you want to check it out.

How about a complete fuel rail with injectors (tested) from a 2013 on ebay? Total of $79.85 w free shipping!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324493081490?h ... SwSudcIQ2o

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Edit: Vendor offers an additional 10% off entire purchase if you buy two items. They list an airbox+ throttle bodies for $97.47!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363299678794?h ... Swy2pcH5t3

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Last edited by FJRoss on Tue May 24, 2022 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by dcarver »

RC Engineering, https://www.rcfuelinjection.com. Used them 3x now, wonderful work.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by Festus »

dcarver wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:54 pm RC Engineering, https://www.rcfuelinjection.com. Used them 3x now, wonderful work.
They are clean, but not balanced. There's no way that I know of to tune one in. Am I wrong on that?

Ross, that's our exact plan next time our schedules match up. Tank swap for longer ride, and then swap that one injector and see if that changes things.
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Re: Gen 3 surging

Post by FJRoss »

Festus wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:43 pm
dcarver wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:54 pm RC Engineering, https://www.rcfuelinjection.com. Used them 3x now, wonderful work.
They are clean, but not balanced. There's no way that I know of to tune one in. Am I wrong on that?

Ross, that's our exact plan next time our schedules match up. Tank swap for longer ride, and then swap that one injector and see if that changes things.
I don't think injectors can be "adjusted". For the price of that fuel rail (and maybe even the throttle bodies), I would give that serious consideration. Worst case scenario is that they don't help and you can resell them here.
I bought a Gen II fuel rail with injectors a couple of years ago when I was chasing a loping idle. Problem cleared up before I got a chance to try them so I am hanging on to the spare set even though I could sell them easily. I see the 2013+ injectors are different from Gen II.

Edit:
Note: The company dcarver referenced provides a description for all they do for cleaning/evaluation/reporting. Apparently important to be able to actuate injectors and flow liquid during ultrasonic. Also back flow... Read the bottom part of this page

https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/Store/c ... r-cleaning

I expect that these guys are very good but you can get four injectors (plus fuel rail) for a lot less than the cost of cleaning/evaluating a set.
Last edited by FJRoss on Tue May 24, 2022 6:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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