griff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:24 am
G - I gotta ask ya - why did you put these ES forks on your bike?
Because the fork tubes look shinier...I'm guessing. That, and the change in unsprung weight allows him to drag a knee just that much farther into a curve, when Niehart is elbowing him during the pass.
If we are throwing out half assed guesses, I got one. Maybe he gixxerjasen'd his forks and found a set of these cheap on fleabay!
No.
I'm pretty sure there is only one person that has done that. Nice try buddy.
Because the fork tubes look shinier...I'm guessing. That, and the change in unsprung weight allows him to drag a knee just that much farther into a curve, when Niehart is elbowing him during the pass.
If we are throwing out half assed guesses, I got one. Maybe he gixxerjasen'd his forks and found a set of these cheap on fleabay!
No.
I'm pretty sure there is only one person that has done that. Nice try buddy.
1.5 if you count AJ with Josh Mountain's bike. My experience made him stop though.
wheatonFJR loved this
My Blog Current Bikes:2007 Yamaha FJR1300AE | 2016 KTM 1190 Adventure R | 2001 Suzuki DRZ-400E Son's Bike:2019 Honda CRF250L
I'm here to serve as an example of what NOT to do.
raYzerman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:00 am
For the last few days...... cleaned and shined up the FJR to a level G would be proud of, installed Gen3 dash shelf along with the GPS mount and voltmeter, new fluids, then Sunday transported it to its new owner. Yep, Root Beer is residing 40 minutes away with one of my best friends, and I'm sure it will be making maintenance visits.... as I've worked on his ST1300 over the years... and his ST is now sitting in my shop getting a cleanup for a spring sale.... this discussion has been going on for about a year.... meanwhile my Honda CBF will be getting some more love and a couple of tweaks....
RacinRay wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:58 pm
Moved it forward in the garage so I could get to the snowblower. We're getting 8" - 14" of snow tonight into tomorrow.
Yuck, please keep it up at your house. Im dreaming of spring.
raYzerman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:41 am
G, there's no preload adjustment but the springs are 1.0 straight rate, so no worries there. I'm not so sure you need any new valving either, and I think the cartridges are rotary valves... now what's to stop you from retrofitting a set of FJR-A caps (assuming they fit) and using the preload adjusters as damping screws (adjusting an A's preload does rotate the cartridge upper "tube"). The A's rebound "rod" is not required as the ES doesn't have that.
OTOH, one could look into some R1 fork caps...... a little research required perhaps....
My friend, you wouldn't believe how much research time I've sunk into this little experiment. The USD forks don't adjust the way you've described Ray. There's a needle valve assembly in the cap. The stepper motor drives the tapered needle up or down in the seat to vary the orifice opening. Fluid flow is inside the dampening rod and leaves via machined ports in the caps. So instead of having the adjustment inside the cartridage (via the "rod") it's in the caps. That's why the OE ES caps are ~$300 each. Lots going on in there.
There's nothing special about the ES forks themselves. Just a standard KYB 43mm USD unit. Yamaha uses them in many different models, although with slightly different stroke. R1, MT-10 and R6S have similar forks but with ~1/2" less stroke. Manual caps from a Tenere screw right in and are the correct length...but there's no needle valve. The difference is the cartridge design and using the caps and stepper motor needle valve for adjustment. I'm still looking at the "R" bikes for cap compatibility.
griff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:24 am
G - I gotta ask ya - why did you put these ES forks on your bike?
Wanted to try it since the USD forks came out. I think they're a better overall design and...love the way they look! Seriously though, after dealing with bushing wear and nasty fluid changes every 10k on standard forks I wanted to check these out. After working on my Tenere and now these, I can see why they're a superior design.
griff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:24 am
G - I gotta ask ya - why did you put these ES forks on your bike?
Because the fork tubes look shinier...I'm guessing. That, and the change in unsprung weight allows him to drag a knee just that much farther into a curve, when Niehart is elbowing him during the pass.
You've got no proof of that wheatie...and Niehart never passes me!
BkerChuck wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:42 am
Rode it to work this morning. Almost 40 degrees when I left the house and stayed pretty consistent the whole way in.
You are making me feel bad. Maybe i should take the cover off and inch it out of its corner and ride it. But its so perfectly positioned... snow is coming so like usual around here they will dump salt and sinders at the first snow flake.
griff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:24 am
G - I gotta ask ya - why did you put these ES forks on your bike?
Wanted to try it since the USD forks came out. I think they're a better overall design and...love the way they look! Seriously though, after dealing with bushing wear and nasty fluid changes every 10k on standard forks I wanted to check these out. After working on my Tenere and now these, I can see why they're a superior design.
~G
I just re-sealed and bushing'd (made that word up) my A model after about 55K. I had changed the fluid twice before, but had a seal seeping, so I took them apart. The lower bushing on each side was gone - shiney silver all around. The middle and upper bushings were like brand new - not one iota of wear to be found anywhere. I could have re-used them, but since I had new bushings, I replaced them.
G - do you think the "nastiness" of the fluid comes from the bushing wear? Or does it come from the film of fork oil with dust/dirt on it swept back into the fork, and that contributes to bushing wear? I've also wondered if the dirtiness of the oil causes the fork to perform any different. In my mind, fresh fork oil does make a difference in the handling, but there is some doubt.
Finally - how does moving the unsprung part of the fork higher allow the bike to exhibit stronger lean angles?
I'm not questioning your experiment - I think it's pretty cool. I'm just trying to understand it more.
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living. Or get busy dying."
- Andy Dufresne, Shawshank Redemption
Working for a company that repairs/rebuilds hydraulic crane cylinders I've learned a lot about contaminants in hydraulic oil. I had the forks apart and rebuilt them twice on my 2007 so I've seen the debris in our forks myself. The vast majority of what I saw was the breaking down of the Teflon coating on the bushings. While it's true some small particle contaminants may enter from being drawn down past the dust boot and wiper seal I really believe 90-95% of the crao we see when we tear these things down is the coating breaking down from the bushings. We use a lot of Teflon coated bushings and guide bands in hydraulic cylinders and part of the reason behind that coating is it's lubricating properties and that it's a self sacrificing type of material. In other words it's cheaper to replace those bushings than a worn inner or outer fork tube.
If you guys ever saw the repair bills for rebuilding some of this crane stuff you'd realize what a bargain our front forks are! We've bought seal kits that cost as much a new FJR!
raYzerman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:00 am
For the last few days...... cleaned and shined up the FJR to a level G would be proud of, installed Gen3 dash shelf along with the GPS mount and voltmeter, new fluids, then Sunday transported it to its new owner. Yep, Root Beer is residing 40 minutes away with one of my best friends, and I'm sure it will be making maintenance visits.... as I've worked on his ST1300 over the years... and his ST is now sitting in my shop getting a cleanup for a spring sale.... this discussion has been going on for about a year.... meanwhile my Honda CBF will be getting some more love and a couple of tweaks....
Jeff?
No.. Jeff already has a '10 and a '16.... it went to Dean in Kitchener. I'll miss it, but we'll see each other enough...
bungie4 loved this
Keep yer stick on the ice........... (Red Green)
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can sure muffle the sound.
The contamination in the fork oil comes from the Teflon as Chuck mentions, but on an A, the fork lower bushing rides up and down inside the cast lower tube... bound to be some microscopic wear of that aluminum alloy, which will give the fork oil a gray appearance... of course, the excess "silt" settles at the bottom of the fork tube.
Re-done a lot of FJR forks... usually it seems Teflon is wearing real thin around 30k miles, depends on the aggressiveness of the rider, and I have seen some non-aggressive riders fork bushings looking darn good at double that. It's the lower bushing that wears out, uppers hardly wear at all.
On an ES, the fork tube rides on two bushings that are fixed in the upper tube, and hardly any wear occurs, nor is there anything riding on aluminum alloy, to the oil still looks clean after 40-50 k, and the bushings look great.
Hppants, escapefjrtist, and bill lumberg loved this
Keep yer stick on the ice........... (Red Green)
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can sure muffle the sound.
Ray, that makes a lot of sense. The bottom bushing is installed on the steel inner tube and moves up and down in the aluminum lower which would result in microscopic wear of the aluminum. The upper and middle bushings are installed in the lower aluminum leg with the moving part being steel which would have very little noticeable wear. I'm not sure what the clearance is at each bushing but I also wonder if the bottom bushing doesn't have the largest tolerance which would mean the greatest chance of wear and tear.
Logical too that USD forks with the bushings being where they are would exhibit less wear. My Buell has inverted forks and I know the times they've been gone through the bushings have never needed replacement.
Hack wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:12 pm
I just want to know HTF Ray fits all this info into that tiny head of his...
Lol!
Laugh all you want... it's guys like you who swell my head up so more fits in it... and as you get older, more gets in it. Then as my head deflates, I have to purge something out.... if I don't declutter, I'll have to blame you for my headache, LOL. Can't win.
Hppants, Full House, LKLD and 1 others loved this
Keep yer stick on the ice........... (Red Green)
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can sure muffle the sound.
Hack wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:12 pm
I just want to know HTF Ray fits all this info into that tiny head of his...
Lol!
Laugh all you want... it's guys like you who swell my head up so more fits in it... and as you get older, more gets in it. Then as my head deflates, I have to purge something out.... if I don't declutter, I'll have to blame you for my headache, LOL. Can't win.
You sound just like Rickey explaining to Julian and Bubbles why he didn't die or suffer brain damage when he had a heart attack.
Hppants wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 am
<<snip>>Finally - how does moving the unsprung part of the fork higher allow the bike to exhibit stronger lean angles?
I'm not questioning your experiment - I think it's pretty cool. I'm just trying to understand it more.
"pants, the boys provided excellent descriptions of fork oil contamination. Remember where the unsprung weight comment came from? Our buddy wheatie can spin some tall tales...
Hack wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:12 pm
I just want to know HTF Ray fits all this info into that tiny head of his...
Lol!
Laugh all you want... it's guys like you who swell my head up so more fits in it... and as you get older, more gets in it. Then as my head deflates, I have to purge something out.... if I don't declutter, I'll have to blame you for my headache, LOL. Can't win.
My job.. the skills.. I have to study constantly to keep up. As new stuff goes in, I have to push something out. One day, I just know its gonna be how to control my bowels.
