Anti Seize Compound

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Anti Seize Compound

Post by bill lumberg » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:53 am

Never having been a U-Boat commander, I had never seen bolts as jacked up as the ones I pulled out of my 2014 FJR. These were non-Yamaha bolts for the bag guards and sliders. I have ordered new bolts (thanks T-Rex and R&G), and want to minimize the chances of rust or galling. Is there a particular anti-seize that I should look for? Or will almost anything with anti-seize in the name do? I've been told that blue Loctite works (and it would match the paint), but surely there's something better. #autozone
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by NTXFJR » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:15 am

Loctite silver or brass anti seize or Ideal Noalox
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by BkerChuck » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:06 am

Be aware when using never-seize that you need to reduce your torque spec or you risk stripping the bolt or pulling the threads. Use it sparingly too as that stuff gets everywhere! We use a lot of it where I work and that crap just gets on everything and it does NOT clean up very easily.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by bill lumberg » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:12 am

Never would have guessed that. Good info. Permatex aluminum anti seize, “a highly refined blend of aluminum copper and graphite lubricants” in the ballpark?
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by raYzerman » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:19 am

Steel into aluminum not good over time. Anti-seize in critical places like those bag guard mounts and engine mount bolts for guards/sliders. Yep, reduce torque 20-30%.
Note, the bag guard (footpeg stay) threads in the subframe will strip easily. When it happens, get longer bolts and put a nut on the inside side.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by rbentnail » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:44 am

bill lumberg wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:12 am
Never would have guessed that. Good info. Permatex aluminum anti seize, “a highly refined blend of aluminum copper and graphite lubricants” in the ballpark?
Yes.

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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by Uncle Hud » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 am

Never been a U-boat commander either, although I spent a lot of time as the Head Honcho Neutron Collider Boy of the Watch. We used a lot of teflon tape on the USS Tunny.

Now, when I say "a lot", I mean we rolled the tape around the bolt threads at least three or four times. That way we could be reasonably assured of nut/bolt tightness while keeping the metal parts from actually touching. In theory, that eliminated any galvanic corrosion -- where water and salt eat one metal part if the two touching parts aren't exactly the same metal.

Teflon tape (apparently) loves sea water, because that stuff stayed fresh-looking for years at a time. You'll know if you've applied to much, because the bolt won't go into the nut or threaded hole.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by gixxerjasen » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:18 pm

I see someone has never owned a first gen Yamaha FZ1. Thanks to the exhaust valve you'd either be an expert in drilling and tapping seized bolts, or anti-seize. That bike taught me both skills.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by Hppants » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:20 pm

I've always wanted to ride an FZ-1. Never had the chance. I like that bike in so many ways.

On a related matter, I've ridden a 1250 Bandit quite a bit and LOVE that bike a lot.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by gixxerjasen » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:19 pm

Hppants wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:20 pm
I've always wanted to ride an FZ-1. Never had the chance. I like that bike in so many ways.

On a related matter, I've ridden a 1250 Bandit quite a bit and LOVE that bike a lot.
Rode a Bandit back to back with my Gen 1 FZ1. Didn't see what all the fuss was about.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by MindWebs » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:24 pm

Anything is better then nothing.

Just for future reference, jap bikes need anti seize of any kind.

Technical blah blah blah:
Any time 2 dissimilar metals are brought together, in this case aluminium case threads and steel fasteners, they conduct static electricity from the air at different rates then you throw moisture in and you have a slow electrolysis process that creates oxidations of the aluminum (being the softer metal, it becomes sacrificial in the process) increasing compression on the threads as a white powder locking it in place. The easiest preventative method is to displace/prevent the moisture from entering the threads IE. Grease, anti-seize compound, others... is also adds sacrificial metal softer then the aluminum the save the base metal.

BUT, never use on a H-D......
Only use loctite!!
Let's just say vibration loosening issues...... nuff said.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by Red » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:57 pm

bill lumberg wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:53 am
Never having been a U-Boat commander, I had never seen bolts as jacked up as the ones I pulled out of my 2014 FJR. Is there a particular anti-seize that I should look for? Or will almost anything with anti-seize in the name do?
Bill,

"Seizing" is galvanic corrosion between dis-similar metals. Moisture and humidity will make things worse, of course. There is a scientific list of metals, called the Galvanic Series. The closer two metals are to each other on the list, the less of a problem you will have with parts seizing. Metals far from each other on the list are not at all friendly with each other. The list can have a lot of materials listed, or just a few. Here is a decent (long) list. Click and scroll down:

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Defini ... series.htm

Anti-seize compounds can be made with any number of materials, and those materials will be listed on the label. If you check the list, aluminum and most stainless steels are not very friendly, but an anti-seize compound containing a lot of copper (being halfway between aluminum and stainless steel) would be the best choice in anti-seize compounds for that job. There is not any great anything-to-anything anti-seize compound, so try to pick the best choice of anti-seize compound from the Galvanic Series list, for the job at hand. HTH.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by silverback » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:57 am

Another thing to consider is something higher on the list (like titanium) being small in something low on the list being large (like aluminum) causes a lot more problem than a small low metal in a large high metal. A titanium hilock in an aluminum aircraft skin is a horrible combo.

So why don't 737s look like Swiss cheese after a couple months?

Well, the hilock is plated with various metals from nickel through cadmium. That gives a "gradient" to balance out the galvanic potential.

This leads to the conclusion that if you're using steel bolts in aluminum, you probably want zinc plated bolts. Pretty sure mama Yama uses zinc or another low metal to plate their bolts.

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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by ionbeam » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:26 am

^^^^^ Most bolts on the FJR appear to be plated. Getting acidic car wash soap and/or salt water wicked up and into 'dry' threads will vastly facilitate oxidation (corrosion/rust).

Reduce the torque values by 25% - 30% for lubricated fasteners. Torque may have to be reduced even more when installing fasteners into threaded aluminum to achieve the same Clamping Load as a dry fastener. There is a lot to evaluate to determine actual lubricated torque values in an industrial or high reliability setting, but for Duffer Work(tm) 25% - 30% is a good range to prevent pulling out the threads. Critical items on the FJR will have a torque to yield value.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by raYzerman » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:19 pm

The most critical on an FJR to me are the big 12mm fine threaded engine mount bolts, particularly where most mount sliders and crash bars.... I have seen those get seized in, and you don't want to be stripping those ones. Left side in particular, right side is in an adjustable sleeve. Excellent point on reducing torque where threads are lubricated, these ones included.
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Re: RE: Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by silverback » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:34 pm


ionbeam wrote:^^^^^ Most bolts on the FJR appear to be plated. Getting acidic car wash soap and/or salt water wicked up and into 'dry' threads will vastly facilitate oxidation (corrosion/rust).

Reduce the torque values by 25% - 30% for lubricated fasteners. Torque may have to be reduced even more when installing fasteners into threaded aluminum to achieve the same Clamping Load as a dry fastener. There is a lot to evaluate to determine actual lubricated torque values in an industrial or high reliability setting, but for Duffer Work(tm) 25% - 30% is a good range to prevent pulling out the threads. Critical items on the FJR will have a torque to yield value.
Most aftermarket bolts aren't, which was kinda my point. Anti-sieze isn't a bad idea on any bimetallic joint, but plating is mo betta.

As for reducing torque values due to lube, most engineered joints involving clampup forces already consider some form of lube. (Ref. Shirley's Mechanical Engineering Handbook). I'd be willing to bet factory fasteners have cetyl alcohol coating in the procurement spec, because lubricant leads to consistency when torquing fasteners. Aftermarket fasteners usually aren't coated.

If you're stripping threads because of thread lube, you either don't have enough thread engagement, your torque wrench (who the hell uses those anyway???) is out of calibration, or the threads were jacked up before you started. I have never reduced torque values due to lube. Some repair manuals indicate the torque spec is with lubricant. (Chrysler 2.5L head bolts come to mind).

Reducing torque values is a great way to make sure the bolts don't seize up though. Can't seize in a hole it doesn't occupy. Try it on your lug nuts some time on the Wife's car. See See how that works out for you!

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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by raYzerman » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:42 pm

Yes we should clarify that some torques are spec'd as lubricated. Head bolts primary example, most call for engine oil lube prior to install. The frame bolts I referred to are dry, OEM bolts plated, but lotsa bimetal corrosion takes place, can get stripped out on removal. Those ones I'd take out right now if you haven't and put something on them.
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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by Hppants » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:04 pm

I have had corrosion on my engine mounting bolts that Ray refers, the 12 mm ones with the crash sliders. I haven't had to use a tap on them. I just put a light coat of oil on the bolt, ran it back and forth a few time, and blew it dry with air. I used Locktight when re-installing. BTW - the tightening sequence when torqueing those bolts is very specific. Make a difference with respect to vibration - I've noticed it.
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Re: RE: Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by silverback » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:09 pm

raYzerman wrote:Yes we should clarify that some torques are spec'd as lubricated. Head bolts primary example, most call for engine oil lube prior to install. The frame bolts I referred to are dry, OEM bolts plated, but lotsa bimetal corrosion takes place, can get stripped out on removal. Those ones I'd take out right now if you haven't and put something on them.
I have never seen a spec that reads "reduce torque by 30% when threads are lubricated." Never. Not once.

Corrosion on those bolts might happen, but I haven't seen it on each of my bikes. The 2005 was 9ish years old when I put sliders on it. Kansas bike that appeared to have had a normal life. I.E. not a hangar queen.

Personally, I wouldn't reduce torque on bolts that hold the engine in the frame. I put the blue juice on mine. Works as a thread lube until it sets. Also seals the thread so it doesn't wick moisture. I really suspect these bolts are speced to a torque for a reason. Valve cover bolts...meh. tight enough not to fall out is good enough. Major structure or single point failure? Needs full torque.

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Re: Anti Seize Compound

Post by BkerChuck » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:34 pm

Quick Google search and.....

https://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/torque_s ... ations.pdf

I work in a hydraulic cylinder repair shop and we have to be really careful with this kind of stuff as a crane failing can be fatal. Our shop is ISO certified and we even have to be aware of expiration dates on loctite and anti seize.
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