Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

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ionbeam
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by ionbeam » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:30 pm

Hppants wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:42 pm
...had a starter issue...in ADDITION to a bad starter relay...did the self-induced starter problem fry the relay? Seems coincidental...
Highly likely it is just coincidental, as unlikely as it may seem ;) The only way the starter could have damaged the starter relay would be with prolonged excess current draw. Before this could happen the battery voltage would drop way down and Ray would have heard a long series of click, click, click, click, click, click from the relay as the reduced battery voltage would cause the starter relay coil to de-energize, then when the voltage came back up it would re-energize the relay coil. Repeat, repeat, repeat. There is no way the relay could have caused a problem with the starter.

The starter relay in all years of FJRs have had some failures. Relay autopsies have found some relays have burned contacts and at least one relay had the contact debond and fall off of the relay reed.

=========================================

TMI

Even though the electrical system is DC, the rotating armature of the motor makes the current draw of the starter behave a lot like AC as each brush makes a circuit as it contacts a commutator on the armature, then breaks the circuit before the next brush picks up the next commutator. Each MAKE circuit causes high current. Each BREAK causes the circuit current to collapse. When the starter button is released the relay contacts open. When the contacts first open there can be an electrical arc initiated between the contacts, the arc acts like a tiny, high current arc welder which can cause hot-spots hot enough to melt the contact metal. The melted spot is tiny, but over time, with every start the burn area on the relay contact gets larger until final failure. A relay can be damaged by rough handling, especially as the relay is being energized or if the hermetically sealed plastic case develops a small crack. Any moisture that gets into the relay will cause a highly accelerated failure mode.

New relay contacts on the left. A heavily arc damaged relay contact on the right; there will be so little surface area to contact that it can't carry the electrical current needed to turn the starter:

Image

Since the starter circuit is only occasionally used, as opposed to an electrical circuit that turns ON/OFF a relay quite often, no automotive/motorcycle engineer bothers to use a protecting circuit to prevent damage. It is easy to add a 'snubbing' circuit to prevent contact damage all together. One of the simplest is to use an appropriately calculated resistor and capacitor, this will essentially prevent arcing completely.

Image
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by wheatonFJR » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:32 pm

I feel smarter just reading the stuff Alan writes.

I don't understand it...but I feel smarter and these days that's all that matters.
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by bungie4 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:48 pm

Off the rails!

One of Busts trained sheep..

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Choo choo mf'r.

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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by ionbeam » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:59 pm

^^^^^ I sent that little ditty to Bust a few years ago when he needed something to cheer him up.
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by raYzerman » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:58 pm

The start relay failure was on the coil side of the relay, the teeny gauge wire was brittle and broke, thus no continuity/intermittent in the coil. I finished it off when I dissected it.... the main contacts I thought were fine. The only cure was a replacement relay, which is a lightly used OEM one. It goes clicky real nice.

Hack came over, no Scott this time, so nobody to blame. We installed the gas tank, propped it up so after it starts we can ensure no coolant leaks, and ultimately do a throttle body sync. All the sync passages were cleaned, as well as injectors/passages, sync screws all backed out ~7/8 turn. It will need a sync. So ya ready?

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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by John d » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:22 pm

Time to verify spark?

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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by wheatonFJR » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:02 pm

This is gettin excitin.
Laying around the house...amazed that a '13 just rolled up to my door.

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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by ionbeam » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:05 pm

Unfortunately, the starter was pushed for a second then released and never had one solid push and crank at first. Since the tank is already up, it sure would make a feller curious to see what a plug or two looks like. Wet, flooded, totally dry, some fuel delivery problem or perhaps a problem with the wax motor/choke system.

A quick tour of diAG will fire the spark plugs proving the primary and secondary voltage systems and a quick firing of the injectors to verify the ECU has them under control. Then it becomes a matter of checking spark timing and a verification of the spark timing pickup. Umm, also a check along the timing cover to be sure that no wires got pinched in the cover seams Image
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by Hack » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:13 pm

ionbeam wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:05 pm
Unfortunately, the starter was pushed for a second then released and never had one solid push and crank at first. Since the tank is already up, it sure would make a feller curious to see what a plug or two looks like. Wet, flooded, totally dry, some fuel delivery problem or perhaps a problem with the wax motor/choke system.

A quick tour of diAG will fire the spark plugs proving the primary and secondary voltage systems and a quick firing of the injectors to verify the ECU has them under control. Then it becomes a matter of checking spark timing and a verification of the spark timing pickup. Umm, also a check along the timing cover to be sure that no wires got pinched in the cover seams Image
'Turns out it wasn't that complicated an issue... 'Wait for take 3 Lol

Image
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by ionbeam » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:21 pm

^^^^ EZ is always good!
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by rbentnail » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:59 pm

John d wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:20 am
I thought this was a kinda of fucked up bait and switch thread. Ray, were you ever in sales?
Festus. I think I remember where Ray lives.
Ray has always been a Master Baiter.
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by wheatonFJR » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:17 pm

Tell me when the real thread starts...
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by dcarver » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:35 am

Brutal Bastards all of ya alls..

Let the man rock!
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by rbentnail » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:38 am

dcarver wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:35 am
Brutal Bastards all of ya alls..

Let the man rock in a sock in peace!
ftfy.
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by Hppants » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:06 am

Ummm Ray, Hack? Hello? Is anybody in there?

Where is this "take 3" you speak of?

Come on, men. Throw us peasants a bone....
"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living. Or get busy dying."
- Andy Dufresne, Shawshank Redemption

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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by John d » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:09 am

Hppants wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:06 am
Ummm Ray, Hack? Hello? Is anybody in there?

Where is this "take 3" you speak of?

Come on, men. Throw us peasants a bone....
Fake news?
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by raYzerman » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Well, once again, I have to take you back to earlier posts to figure out what was wrong... like the one (page 4 for me) where I was organizing stuff on the shelf..... but I've also been busy on other stuff... yer new vid is coming real soon.
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by raYzerman » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:29 pm



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Keep yer stick on the ice........... (Red Green)
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can sure muffle the sound.

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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by FJRPittsburgh » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:33 pm

SWEET! Ray, you are the master. and not baiter this time! Woo hoo! Congrats!
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Re: Project Bike - 2006 FJR bike in a basket

Post by wheatonFJR » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:18 pm

So...how come the bike was in a basket? I've lost track...

Btw, good job getting "a bike" to start. When are you going to work on the basket bike?

:D

Seriously, good job Ray. Don't work on the front forks though.
Laying around the house...amazed that a '13 just rolled up to my door.

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