Sputter and Pipe discoloration

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:39 pm

Ok....for those following with interest I'm sorry for the delay. Ok I just got finished running the dIAG mode and here are the results.

TPS - dIAG1 - smooth as butter from 16-99. Going slow I can see every increment and going fast the same. No big jumps or abnormalities.

dIAG 09 - Fuel System Voltage was 11.8 -- which seems a bit low to me. I do have a new battery I can install if need be also.

dIAG 60 - E2Prom fault display showed 00

dIAG 61 - Malfunction History showed 12 and 30 - - which I'm not entirely certain but I think are crankshaft position sensor and Ignition coil?

dIAG 62 - showed 2....the 2 above I'm assuming and then I cleared them. Restarted the bike and let it run for several minutes but the fault codes did not reappear. The bike does appear to be still stuttering although I did not take it for a test run.

Ok as before any insight would be greatly appreciated. I also thought I had a Service manual but it must have been Mr. Griff's that I was thinking of. LOL. Should have swiped it while I had the chance.

Thanks again all for the help.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by raYzerman » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:55 pm

12 is crankshaft position sensor and 30 is lean angle sensor. Check for pinched wire at right timing cover. Lean angle a mystery unless an old tip-over... however, I believe on Gen1 there was a multi-way connector forward of valve cover near steering head that sometimes got corroded..... no personal experience with that but several had issues. Maybe somebody's got a pic.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:23 pm

raYzerman wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:55 pm
12 is crankshaft position sensor and 30 is lean angle sensor. Check for pinched wire at right timing cover. Lean angle a mystery unless an old tip-over... however, I believe on Gen1 there was a multi-way connector forward of valve cover near steering head that sometimes got corroded..... no personal experience with that but several had issues. Maybe somebody's got a pic.
Ahh I was looking at the list from the "other" site and thought it was coil?? Anyway that would make sense as I dropped her a couple years ago so that must be what that is. I will check for pinched wires and the other suggestions that were made above. Good time to do it since there is like 1/4 tank of gas in it now.

Thanks again!
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:50 pm

Things I've tried this evening - without going to crazy. I lifted the tank and gave a thorough search. I found the big connectors near the steering head you spoke of and disconnected those. One appeared to have slight "corrosion" but nothing that would cause an issue I would think. I sprayed them both just to be safe anyway. No vacuum lines appear messed up and while I had it running I lifted the tank slightly and tugged and pulled the vacuum lines to see if idle changed. I also removed all my accessories from the battery and brought it back to stock to see if that helped.

After doing all the above on restart it appeared to be idling funkier than it had been since this whole thing started with surges happening more consistently. It will "settle" down and the throttle response does get smoother but it still just doesn't sound right.

The other thing that I noticed is when placing a meter on the battery after I shut it down, it is all over the place and doesn't give a consistent reading. 13.2 jumps to 14.5 back to 13.8, 13.1, 14.8....you get the idea. At one point it jumped up to 15.1 then bounced all the way back down to 13.X.....very strange. If the battery is giving out inconsistent voltage could that be part of the problem. Anyway I will try the airbox wires and hoses tomorrow and some of the other suggestions.

Thanks!
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by Hppants » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:05 am

It would seem to me that your pipe discoloration and ridability issues are indicative of a lean engine condition. However, your horrible fuel mileage surely doesn't support this. The symptoms don't seem logical.

And yet, I can't help but think "don't overlook the simple". Since you have a new battery, why not give that the college try? Below 12 volts on your fuel system doesn't seem right. At least put the new battery in and re-check the fuel voltage. Then ride it and see.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ionbeam » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:41 pm

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this. The symptoms as reported are confusing so I've been waiting to see how things are getting sorted out.

One thought is the choke system. There are two parts, the wax motor which advances the RPMs when cold and the Fuel Enrichment routine when the ECU thinks the engine is cold. The wax motor is mechanical, depending on a small volume of antifreeze flowing past it to melt the wax when it gets hot. The Enrichment is determined by the ECU monitoring sensors and calculating the FI timing and duration until the sensors indicate the engine is up to operating temperature. It is possible for the ECU to be in the Enrichment mode without the RPMs being advanced. This would pump a lot of fuel through the engine with a secondary burn after the cats. The four exhaust headers join together in an expansion chamber just before the catalytic converters so what comes out the two exhaust cans is a mix of all four cylinders. A rich fuel mixture makes the engine bog = soft performance.

Once the engine is warmed up, in the lower gears, chop off the throttle. Is there A LOT of popping in the exhaust or even back firing? This would be extra validation that the exhaust is excessively rich. Can you smell gas in the exhaust? Image As if very low gas mileage alone isn't enough.

Umm, this isn't a California model is it? Need to ask, no matter how off the wall.

If the engine is off and the ignition key is off and the battery voltages float around like you noted something is really wrong. To see over 13.2 volts sound a lot like operator error ;) running the meter. It can't shouldn't be possible. If those voltages you read happen with the engine running it may be worth exploring that.

Off the wall #2: Mechanical drag. Does the front and rear wheel turn freely? Does it seem like the clutch is slipping?
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by Bugnatr » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:10 am

I can't help with your problem but..

"I also thought I had a Service manual but it must have been Mr. Griff's that I was thinking of. LOL. Should have swiped it while I had the chance."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by raYzerman » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:55 am

TPS seems to be functioning fine, and I agree something is telling the ECU to be in enriched mode..... about those voltage readings, I was thinking more of a flaky meter/bad connections rather than operator error. Those readings are just plain crazy.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by griff » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:11 am

Bugnatr wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:10 am
I can't help with your problem but..

"I also thought I had a Service manual but it must have been Mr. Griff's that I was thinking of. LOL. Should have swiped it while I had the chance."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I would have never missed it. You can have it, been trying to sell it, but I can donate it to a worthy cause. Let me know how you want to git it.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by wheatonFJR » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:30 am

Why doesn't he ride it down to your place griff...and you can fix it for him.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by griff » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:32 am

wheatonFJR wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:30 am
Why doesn't he ride it down to your place griff...and you can fix it for him.
Haha, I could try, but I'll have to have him sign a disclaimer if the bike melts down in my garage. :lol:
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by wheatonFJR » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:34 am

griff wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:32 am
wheatonFJR wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:30 am
Why doesn't he ride it down to your place griff...and you can fix it for him.
Haha, I could try, but I'll have to have him sign a disclaimer if the bike melts down in my garage. :lol:
Yeah, he would owe you a garage then wouldn't he?
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:15 am

Quick update: going along with Mr. Pants thinking above - new battery installed. It starts better and faster, idle appears to be much better. There is still a weird 1100 to 1300 rpm surge every now and again in the idle. Not sure if that is typical "FJR normal weird idle" or not. It is currently pouring out so I can't take it for a test spin to confirm if it is still sputtering or not. I would like to at least do that before delving into anything else.

On to the meter - I'm sure my "Harbor Freight" special meter is in perfect working order so it must be the user! LOL....I will see if I can find another meter since it does appear to be acting flaky even with the new battery.

Went back into dIAG and fuel pump voltage is now 12.3 with the new battery which I think is better. Still no new codes showing up.

@Mr. Griff - I didn't realize you were selling your manual! Heck yah I would be interested! I love Mr. Wheatie's idea! I will purchase said manual and sign whatever waivers are required to come pick it up in person and maybe just maybe while I'm there if you have a second; just maybe you could take a look/listen at my crazy issue and maybe just maybe offer some of your Superior intellect, knowledge and expertise (is that spreading it too thick?) as to a possible remedy. You know just maybe? Lol
Last edited by ericboutin on Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:22 am

ionbeam wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:41 pm
I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this. The symptoms as reported are confusing so I've been waiting to see how things are getting sorted out.

One thought is the choke system. There are two parts, the wax motor which advances the RPMs when cold and the Fuel Enrichment routine when the ECU thinks the engine is cold. The wax motor is mechanical, depending on a small volume of antifreeze flowing past it to melt the wax when it gets hot. The Enrichment is determined by the ECU monitoring sensors and calculating the FI timing and duration until the sensors indicate the engine is up to operating temperature. It is possible for the ECU to be in the Enrichment mode without the RPMs being advanced. This would pump a lot of fuel through the engine with a secondary burn after the cats. The four exhaust headers join together in an expansion chamber just before the catalytic converters so what comes out the two exhaust cans is a mix of all four cylinders. A rich fuel mixture makes the engine bog = soft performance.

Once the engine is warmed up, in the lower gears, chop off the throttle. Is there A LOT of popping in the exhaust or even back firing? This would be extra validation that the exhaust is excessively rich. Can you smell gas in the exhaust? Image As if very low gas mileage alone isn't enough.

Umm, this isn't a California model is it? Need to ask, no matter how off the wall.

If the engine is off and the ignition key is off and the battery voltages float around like you noted something is really wrong. To see over 13.2 volts sound a lot like operator error ;) running the meter. It can't shouldn't be possible. If those voltages you read happen with the engine running it may be worth exploring that.

Off the wall #2: Mechanical drag. Does the front and rear wheel turn freely? Does it seem like the clutch is slipping?
Thanks for the ideas! Answers in order...

No popping or backfiring has occurred throughout this ordeal.
Gas smell - YES! At the campground it was noticeable! But still no popping.
Not a CA model.
Yes I think you are right, the meter and user are probably both faulty! Lol....definitely the meter though on further inspection.
No mechanical drag. When starting up on center stand the rear wheel does it's normal slow spin.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ionbeam » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:27 am

ericboutin wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:15 am
...On to the meter - I'm sure my "Harbor Freight" special meter is in perfect working order so it must be the user! LOL....I will see if I can find another meter since it does appear to be acting flaky even with the new battery...
Harbor Freight sells several types of meters. If your meter is like the one below, the VΩmA and COM sockets that the meter leads plug into fracture the solder joint where they attach to the circuit board inside the meter. I have fixed a lot of these. Otherwise it is a surprisingly good meter for ~$7. I carry one with me on the bike because at that price point it is essentially a throw-away if things go wrong.

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:37 pm

The one I was using was their older yellow version. It has seen better days for sure. I do have the exact one you pictured above though brand new in the package! It is in the shed somewhere. I will need dig it out and put it in service.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:53 pm

It finally stopped pouring.....but the road test revealed no joy.....still sputtering and surging and I dropped 1 bar (gas gauge) on my test run so there is still that too.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by wheatonFJR » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:56 pm

Have you had any Canadians put boogers on yer FJR? They've been known to do that...
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Mon May 13, 2019 5:29 pm

Finally carved out some time today and pulled the plugs. They don't look that bad to me. Nothing soaked or anything. Here is some pics....sorry for the technical terms....r most is as your sitting on the bike moving left. Thanks for any insight. ImageImageImageImage

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by Hppants » Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 am

Definitely some sooting and build up on those plugs. If they were removed from a 80s vintage GM small block, I'd say no problem. But I've seen enough FJR plugs and I can attest that your bike is definitely running rich. Since we don't have the same view of all of them, it's hard to say if one hole is the worst. However, the #2 (3rd from R) seems to be the worst from the angles I can see.

Have you run the diagnostics to see if you have any engine codes stored? While under the tank, check all wiring connections to sensors?
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